At UPco, two of our Directors recently celebrated significant anniversaries: 30 years with the business for Amanda Ring, and 20 years for Hugh Smyth. We caught up with Amanda and Hugh to reflect on the journey so far: what’s changed, what’s stayed the same and how they feel about the future.

Thanks for catching up, and congratulations on your recent anniversaries. You’ve both accomplished a lot in your time with the business… to borrow from the words of Talking Heads’ David Byrne, well, how did you get here?

Amanda: Thirty years! I suppose that, in the not so distant future, working in one job for that long will no longer be a thing! But for me, it’s been a great experience, which is fortunate, because I didn’t always have planning in my sights as a career.

I actually enrolled in architecture, but I got the heebie-jeebies about it for some reason. Back then, Uni was a lot more flexible and I was able to sidestep into a planning degree. That said – I was not a diligent student! At that stage, waitressing to save for a property purchase and having a social life were much higher priorities. The fact I got through Uni at all is probably down to my handy ability to get things done at the very last minute. I must have been a great source of frustration to my lecturers, and I still consider myself academically an underperformer. But once I entered the industry, I hit my stride.

Early on, I was fortunate to get a role working with the City of Melbourne – a great move for a young planner – then from there, I went to what was then the Ministry of Planning, which is where I met Phil Borelli, a meeting that would be important further down the track! A few years later, he offered me a job at what was then SJB Planning, and the rest is history. I’ve always enjoyed the work and been given plenty of opportunities, including having an ownership stake in the business from relatively early on, and I suppose I have kept growing with the business.

Hugh: I’m the first to admit that I had no idea what I wanted to do when I was in high school. And like most year 12 students, I chose which Uni degrees to apply for by flicking through a course guide and trying to see which ones matched up with my interests… planning wasn’t even my first preference.

Once I got to Uni, I really enjoyed the experience… apart from the academic part! I had way too much fun for the first two years, flapping around and partying. I was ineligible to do my mandatory work placement at the designated time, and ended up dragging my degree out to 5 and a half years. A model student I was not. Luckily, my mum happened to cross paths with Phil Borelli (another meeting that would prove significant). She convinced him to give me an interview, and he was nice enough to give me a job. Once I started work, I pretty quickly realised planning was something I was 1) reasonably good at, and 2) actually interested in. Obviously, a lot has happened since then – establishing an independent planning business, bringing the current Directors on board and, more recently, succession planning. But two decades later, I’m still very happy to be here.

What’s changed since you started out?

Amanda: I don’t think the planning world has changed a lot, really – it’s just become more complicated! But it’s arguable whether increasing complexity has really resulted in better outcomes. Phil always used to say, in a town planning business we’ll never have to worry about having enough work because governments keep making the task harder. Once upon a time, a planning control would be one page, now it’s twelve. And because of that, planning has become more highly specialised. Back in the day, it was something architects could do themselves. And now, the process not only requires planners, it also calls for a number of other specialists. It’s a growth industry!

On a personal level, though, I think my professional performance has evolved in a lot of ways. I’ve always held myself to a very high standard, and the better I become, the more I expect of myself. Somewhat irrationally, I seem to feel less confident than I did 25 years ago, though; I can really tie myself in knots over wanting to achieve the best outcomes for my clients! But it’s the performance anxiety that comes with being a perfectionist. I can understand why consulting is not for everyone – you really do spend every day arguing or advocating for an outcome and that can become exhausting. Planning is really an exercise in resilience and persistence. I think the thrill of the chase has kept me going; I love to win.

Hugh: I feel the same – I would say I hate losing even more than I like winning, and that’s an effective motivator. Over the course of twenty years, I have had the chance to achieve a lot, and I’ve definitely had my failures. And I’ve come to realise that failure is (unfortunately) the only way to improve. I’ve also learnt that, no matter how the planning industry changes, there will always be variables that are beyond our control, and all we can really do is focus our energy on the things we can influence. This is something I’m currently trying to get my son to understand; he’s a perfectionist and he struggles when things don’t go to plan. But it’s always going to happen and it’s how we grow.

What’s been one challenge you’ve encountered, and what did you learn from it?

Hugh: The pandemic was a challenge, but we learn from every experience, major or minor. I think Covid has changed the way business is conducted, and it definitely changed the feel of working. It recalibrated people’s expectations of life and work, and it’s called on us to become way more flexible. Since Covid, I have decided to work a little less so I can spend more time with my kids (they’re ten and six), and get involved in things like coaching their basketball and footy teams. They won’t be this age for long, and I want to make the most of it while I can. Of course, this has only been something I can do with the support of the other Directors. And I feel like since Covid, this type of decision is more acceptable, and that’s a healthy thing.

Amanda: For me, the greatest challenge by far has been managing this career and being a good mother at the same time. I have a wonderful husband who has always been a great help, but women still do it much harder. I didn’t do a lot of outsourcing, even when the kids were young. There was a time when life was very, very exhausting. But I really genuinely always have tried to balance work and family, and not put my professional ambitions ahead of my kids or my relationship. I think that, to do that, you have to acknowledge what’s most important and that there’ll be times when something’s got to give.

It really annoys me when I hear people say you can have it all, because it builds up this unrealistic expectation. People sometimes ask me why I’m not more involved in things like industry committees, speaking engagements, conferences; things like that. But for me, time spent doing that sort of thing is time away from my family. And ultimately, I know where my priorities lie.

How do you feel about the future?

Hugh: One thing that’s been interesting at UPco is the succession planning element. The leadership team has evolved naturally over time – it began with Phil, then Amanda, Kel, Pete and myself came on board. In time Phil stepped down and Marc, James and Henry stepped up. This kind of movement is good, because it reflects the cycle of business and the careers of individuals. Recently, we added Associate Directors to the equation. There is also a legacy component to all of it; you want the business to continue to provide other people with the experiences it’s given you. I feel like we’re pretty well positioned to keep rising to whatever challenges the future throws at us.

Amanda: I feel really positive about UPco. We’ve always considered ourselves more a family than a business entity. I am so happy we have been able to give people so many opportunities, and I have loved (and continue to love) the wonderful parade of people that has worked in the organisation.

The economy isn’t in a great place right now, but I’m optimistic about the future more broadly, too. I’ve been through bumpy times before and I know they’ll even out in time, and it’ll be full steam ahead again before we know it.

It’s funny, in the first part of your career, you’re learning from others. Then you get to a mid-point when you’re the one doing the teaching. And in the back half, you go back to learning again – this time from younger people. And I am really enjoying entering that phase of my career, and learning from UPco’s impressive younger generation.

On that note, what’s one thing you wish you could tell your younger self, 20 or 30 years ago?

Hugh: Talk less, listen more!

Amanda: That things take time. I was a bit fiery when I was younger and didn’t always have a lot of patience or diplomacy! Over a career of more than 30 years, I’ve learnt that you attract more bees with honey. It’d be nice for my younger self to have the wisdom that I like to think I have now.

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